If our Product was half as good we would be equally successful
NNeetCodeIO@NeetCodeIO · 352K subscribers
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0:00–0:25I take it that you're probably a pretty competitive person. And Uh the reason I say that is because I think you had an interesting take with SST, which uh for people who don't know, I I guess you could say just a better experience over certain like AWS uh infrastructure and tools and just kind of giving you a better experience for that. But uh not everything, I guess, is a competition. Not everything necessarily
Structure
I take it that you're probably a pretty competitive person. And Uh the reason I say that is because I think you had an interesting take with SST, which uh for people who don't know, I I guess you could say just a better experience over certain like AWS uh infrastructure and tools and just kind of giving you a better experience for that. But uh not everything, I guess, is a competition. Not everything necessarily takes away from someone else. Um and now that you're working on OpenCode. Uh from outside picture, it obviously looks like you guys are direct competitors. Do you see it that way? And do you see with what's recently happened with kind of Anthropic cracking down on reusing the Anthropic uh subscription within directly within OpenCode, which there's workarounds for right now. But uh with with that happening recently, how is like your opinion uh changed on like the competition aspect of it? Uh did you originally see this as a competition? And if not, do you see it as a competition now? Yeah, yeah. So, I'll talk about this. It's It is very complicated. Um so, generally, I will say that uh I don't believe like I'm not someone that believes the world is zero-sum. I think most systems in the world are set up for everyone to benefit. That doesn't mean that every microcosm of the world is not zero-sum.
Watch from 0:00And when it comes to business, people love to like and this is like PR speak constantly. Like you'll see this from big companies or even small companies acting like oh, like we're not we're like even though we're competitors, like we can all win. Or they kind of paint this like rosy picture of like it's all of us doing stuff together. It's That's not the It's not That's not true. Like business is just like sports. Like you and another company are competing for alternate visions of the world. And it might not be something where like one side entirely wins or the other side entirely wins. Um but that there is real competition there and I think people like to deny it cuz I don't know, I think the public wants to believe this like kind of everything is like nice and positive type of thing. I don't think competition is negative. I think it's just like sports. Like there two teams want to compete. They're going to like want to kill the other team. On some level they kind of respect each other cuz they're both at the top of their game doing something, but there are winners and losers and you do want to crush your opponents. Um so I am competitive and I do think about things in that way. Uh the other thing though is there's something that people don't think about that much. Um positioning is extremely important. Uh and even though your products might look similar and look competitive, your positioning might have zero overlap. Uh so if you look at uh everything that Open Code has done, I think we've done a decent job on product, but any of our success is really coming from our positioning.
Watch from 1:24Uh we basically looked at the market and we were like it's very likely that competition between between models continues to be a big thing, not just the frontier models, but also open source models. Like this is going to continue to be a thing. There's going to be a lot of pressure for prices to come down. There's tons of companies purely focused on inference. So we just saw like a lot of like chaos happening in the model realm. Um so positioning-wise, it's good to build a tool that's not tied to a single model cuz we benefit whenever like one model tries to beat another one. Uh which we thought, you know, is going to happen a lot. And two, we're like we want to be the number one open source position. We are extremely competitive with anyone trying to be like the open source coding tool company cuz that is the number one position that we want to defend. Uh we think that's a valuable position because historically all dev tools eventually end up being open source. Like there's definitely room for proprietary ones, but the default ones tend to be open source. Your database is open source, used to be proprietary. Even like C compilers were proprietary at some point, now they're all source. Uh if you look at almost everything that's in your stack, editors, etc., the majority of the market goes to the open source option. So, I don't feel like we're technically competitive with Cloud Code in positioning cuz they are not trying to do that. They're trying to build like a vertically integrated uh experience, um which there's always going to be room in the market for. Uh we just don't really care about that that side of it. So, they can continue to do their thing. That's fine.
Watch from 2:52But then, if you dig one layer deeper, there is just like rivalry and like uh competition. And like there's values that we care about that are in conflict with theirs. And we want to show that our values lead to better results. Uh so, we're definitely going to be like naturally competitive from that that point of view. Right, that makes sense. Up next, we talk about why Open Code has been so successful so far and also how the team has already reacted to acquisition offers that they've already received. One of my most interesting parts was when we talk about how AI has made shipping code faster and shipping features, but it actually hasn't made it any easier to actually know what to ship in the first place. If anything, it's actually made it harder because it's so easy to just throw out a bunch of features even if nobody actually cares about those features. So, I wanted to introduce our sponsor PostHog, which for me, when I'm working on Neat Code IO, helps me solve the problem of what I should actually be building and what users actually care about. PostHog makes it really easy to know how users are engaging with your app, how they're finding your app, why they might be dropping off of your app. For example, on Neat Code, we recently added a streak feature and that helped increase retention a ton. So, when you add a feature, whether it's easy to add or difficult to add, you need to know whether it made any sort of impact or not because sometimes you can add a feature and people actually don't like it. So, it's important to know that and you don't really know that unless you're using some kind of tool. And PostHog
Watch from 4:20makes it super super easy. It's really easy to set up. It has a generous free tier. You can even self-host it. It's open source, so you can do that if you really want to. Some of my favorite features are one, the feature flag, which is a pretty I would say mandatory feature. You need it one way or another and PostHog makes it pretty easy to integrate that. So, with that, not only can you progressively roll out a feature, but you can also run like an AB test and you can know precisely if a feature helped your app, helped engagement, helped retention, and things like that, or it actually hurt. Like I said, it's super easy to integrate, so what are you waiting for? You can check it out at go.posthog.com/navi. Tell them Neat Code sent you. I guess as a user, someone who's used like Open Code and Cloud Code, I'll definitely say that Open Code is very like it's a very great experience. It's easy to use. It has integration with other Well, it has workarounds for Cloud Code, but it has direct integration with Open AI. Um, but you're saying that like positioning-wise, you're saying that the quality of the tool is as good as it is and as much as that matters, you're saying that it's actually more important that I guess the bullet points in my head are that it's open source, that you can switch between models very easily. There's no sort of lock-in. And maybe third is that you guys were probably the first like big open source tool that's doing this. And like that first mover advantage. Would you say that those three things like positioning-wise are the main contributors?
Watch from 5:51Yeah, I would say that that those are like the umbrella and they kind of manifest as like a thousand little things that you have to do to actually successfully do those things. So, for example, why be open source? The benefit is you get way more eyes on it trying it in different environments than you can internally, which means Open Code from the beginning has been designed to like sneak its way into every type of environment. If you're someone with a super locked down enterprise laptop and your company only has access to Amazon Bedrock, we made sure that that's worked. But Amazon Bedrock has quirks in different regions. Like we cover all of those like tedious little things um to make sure that this can kind of work across the board. And being open source helps us a lot because we can't really recreate those environments, but other people can and they can submit issues and fixes for it. Um So yeah, it's a the benefit of being open source you can cover like a long tail. Like long tail type scenario you can you can kind of cover really well. I was going to say but to go back to your original point, yeah like I think if our product was half as good, I think we'd probably still be equally as successful cuz the majority of our success comes from that doing those positioning things correctly. Right. Yeah and I I guess that's probably a big part that most people overlook nowadays and yeah. Yeah. Um in terms of uh like like the competition aspect of it, one last uh interesting uh thing I was curious about was OpenAI is taking sort of a different route at least in their relationship with you guys.
Watch from 7:19What is that relationship and why is OpenAI doing it differently? Yeah, so this kind of again goes back to our positioning. We're like if we're the open source option, it means we have a shot at being like a standard that other people build on top of or we get embedded in places. Uh so even prior to the OpenAI thing, we had been working with uh GitHub, GitLab, JetBrains, trying to convince everyone that hey you guys offer LLMs uh service and you guys have a pool of people that want to use H2O coding. Just bless open code as a great way to do that because we're putting a lot more time into it than you guys are doing with your native tools and people seem to like it. Um and we convinced a bunch of them like uh that hey like this is a good idea, let's do it. Uh we had enough of them on board that I was able to go then go to Open AI and say uh "Hey, like, you know, a few seems like the industry is supporting this. Like, are you guys willing to support it, too?" Um the reason I went to them is because one, uh they're in again, going back to competition, they're in a competition with Anthropic. Anthropic is winning in terms of mindshare for coding. Uh for them, they can only gain from doing something like this, like PR-wise, just practically getting more users and uh using Codex. I also timed asking them like the day before Anthropic blocked uh Claude Max and open code. So, I kind of told them this is happening um like a I I think we didn't get any advanced notice. It just got blocked the night before and we ended up messaging them and yeah, they were they kind of saw the opportunity uh just to counter position. Um so, yeah, I I
Watch from 8:50I don't I don't know if this means fundamentally they like embrace this this type of setup uh or if it's just exploiting these kind of short-term uh incentives that they have to try to beat Anthropic. Um but that's really what our company does well. Like, we're good at figuring out these things and like applying pressure in the right spot to get something to fold in a way that's good for ourselves and really like all our users and usually the open-source community broadly uh cuz that also made it so other coding agents like Pi also got access to open uh Open AI uh plan. So, um yeah, like I said, it's all just playing these people against each other, trying to understand their incentives, trying to create a good situation. Um we've done this before. Typically, it it usually ends up looking like you have like one company that you can kind of position as like the bad guy and then you kind of get the rest of the industry to like uh be on the other side of it and you can kind of make things happen in that way. Right. And I think it's kind of funny that it's sort of changing very, very quickly who's the good guy and who's the bad guy. And uh like you said, even like as Open AI's incentives change, they might, you know, change their mind about certain things as well. Um on that note, we we've seen really interesting acquisitions happening lately. I think a couple months ago Bun was acquired by Anthropic, which I think probably caught a lot of people by surprise.
Watch from 10:21And recently we've seen OpenClaw acquired by OpenAI. Is Open Code next? Like the name wise it'd be pretty good. OpenAI Open Code. So So yeah, and I guess what would be the calculus like behind a decision like that? Yeah, and I think what I'm going to say is probably true for a lot of founders. We have spent a lot of years building companies to various successes. Uh we've always dreamed of building in a much bigger market than we were. Like with every company you build, you're like, "Next time I want to go for something bigger." And you spend so much of your life looking for that. Uh the day you find it, which we now we found that with Open Code. Like now we're serving in a market that's like 30 to 50 million million developers. Like we could reach all them. That's like pretty crazy that a product that could do that. Uh uh wanting to hand that over is a very difficult decision cuz this is a thing that you spent years searching for. Um and your floor of success, like even if things go to are like it's like still like pretty good. So these offers tend to be less tempting um compared against our the thing that's like the thing we've been looking for forever. So we've had plenty of acquisition offers come our way already in the past like past couple months. We haven't like pursued any of them.
Watch from 11:46Um someone would have to like drastically overpay, uh which to be honest has happened. Like AI stuff is crazy. Like we've seen some acquisitions last year that were like kind of absurd numbers wise. Um so overpaying is not out of the question. But I'm actually very proud of our team cuz I I have a specific story where uh CEO of a company called me and they were like, "Hey, we're interested in in acquiring you guys." Uh and we talked I talked to them about a little bit and I was like, "I don't know if this will work out, but I'll talk to the team." I posted in the in our team chat, like, "Hey, like, you know, this company is wants to acquire us." Everyone ignored me. They just kept talking about like product stuff. They were like working on other stuff. And I pinged everyone again and then someone finally replied being like, "Tell them to off until they add another zero." Uh and it's not like we like even talked about numbers or anything, but it was really cool to see that the whole team is really aligned on trying to take this all the way and not like trying to cash out something pretty quick. Yeah, no, I think that's really interesting and um yeah, that's why I asked about like the calculus behind it because I think uh like in the case of Bun, um Jared for example, he's obviously been working on this and like he did not get into this for the money. He would not have created that project for the money, but it did end up working out for him in the end.
Watch from 13:06And I think not only did it work out for him, I think it probably worked out for Bun as well in the sense that um probably for a long time I'm not an expert on how many people are working on Bun, but he was probably the main single point of failure. And I would say that your uh while you guys have a small team, it's it is set up somewhat differently. Um so, yeah, I think that that that does make sense. Yeah, the and like you know, every founder I'm saying this now, uh if you talk to me again after a couple years and it turns out it was a slog and really struggling, my willingness to sell is going to be totally different. Like with with companies it's always about can you continue to stay motivated every single day? Uh any company that becomes huge is cuz the founders successfully did that for years and years and years. And it's very hard to do that. And a lot of these acquisitions happen because uh you know, like even though a company might be doing well, making progress, maybe the progress isn't as fast as the founder's hoping or it seems like infinite work ahead of them. Um sometimes that's when these acquisitions uh happen. And again, like they're great acquisitions for everyone including employees. Uh but yeah, we're trying to we're trying to go all the way at least as of now.
Watch from 14:23Full transcript
- 0:00
I take it that you're probably a pretty competitive person. And Uh the reason I say that is because I think you had an interesting take with SST, which uh for people who don't know, I I guess you could say just a better experience over certain like AWS uh infrastructure and tools and just kind of giving you a better experience for that. But
- 0:20
uh not everything, I guess, is a competition. Not everything necessarily takes away from someone else. Um and now that you're working on OpenCode. Uh from outside picture, it obviously looks like you guys are direct competitors. Do you see it that way? And do you see with what's recently happened with kind of Anthropic cracking down on reusing the
- 0:43
Anthropic uh subscription within directly within OpenCode, which there's workarounds for right now. But uh with with that happening recently, how is like your opinion uh changed on like the competition aspect of it? Uh did you originally see this as a competition? And if not, do you see it as a competition now?
- 1:04
Yeah, yeah. So, I'll talk about this. It's It is very complicated. Um so, generally, I will say that uh I don't believe like I'm not someone that believes the world is zero-sum. I think most systems in the world are set up for everyone to benefit. That doesn't mean that every microcosm of the world is not zero-sum. And when it comes to business,
- 1:26
people love to like and this is like PR speak constantly. Like you'll see this from big companies or even small companies acting like oh, like we're not we're like even though we're competitors, like we can all win. Or they kind of paint this like rosy picture of like it's all of us doing stuff together. It's That's not the It's not That's not true. Like business is just like sports.
- 1:47
Like you and another company are competing for alternate visions of the world. And it might not be something where like one side entirely wins or the other side entirely wins. Um but that there is real competition there and I think people like to deny it cuz I don't know, I think the public wants to believe this like kind of everything is like nice and positive
- 2:08
type of thing. I don't think competition is negative. I think it's just like sports. Like there two teams want to compete. They're going to like want to kill the other team. On some level they kind of respect each other cuz they're both at the top of their game doing something, but there are winners and losers and you do want to crush your opponents. Um so I am competitive and I do think about things in that way. Uh the other thing though is there's
- 2:29
something that people don't think about that much. Um positioning is extremely important. Uh and even though your products might look similar and look competitive, your positioning might have zero overlap. Uh so if you look at uh everything that Open Code has done, I think we've done a decent job on product, but any of our success is
- 2:49
really coming from our positioning. Uh we basically looked at the market and we were like it's very likely that competition between between models continues to be a big thing, not just the frontier models, but also open source models. Like this is going to continue to be a thing. There's going to be a lot of pressure for prices to come down. There's tons of companies purely focused on inference. So we just saw like a lot of like chaos
- 3:10
happening in the model realm. Um so positioning-wise, it's good to build a tool that's not tied to a single model cuz we benefit whenever like one model tries to beat another one. Uh which we thought, you know, is going to happen a lot. And two, we're like we want to be the number one open source position. We are extremely competitive with anyone trying to be like the open source coding
- 3:31
tool company cuz that is the number one position that we want to defend. Uh we think that's a valuable position because historically all dev tools eventually end up being open source. Like there's definitely room for proprietary ones, but the default ones tend to be open source. Your database is open source, used to be proprietary. Even like C compilers were proprietary at some point, now they're all source.
- 3:52
Uh if you look at almost everything that's in your stack, editors, etc., the majority of the market goes to the open source option. So, I don't feel like we're technically competitive with Cloud Code in positioning cuz they are not trying to do that. They're trying to build like a vertically integrated uh experience, um which there's always
- 4:13
going to be room in the market for. Uh we just don't really care about that that side of it. So, they can continue to do their thing. That's fine. But then, if you dig one layer deeper, there is just like rivalry and like uh competition. And like there's values that we care about that are in conflict with theirs. And we want to show that our values lead to better results. Uh so, we're definitely going to be like
- 4:34
naturally competitive from that that point of view. Right, that makes sense. Up next, we talk about why Open Code has been so successful so far and also how the team has already reacted to acquisition offers that they've already received. One of my most interesting parts was when we talk about how AI has made shipping code faster and shipping
- 4:55
features, but it actually hasn't made it any easier to actually know what to ship in the first place. If anything, it's actually made it harder because it's so easy to just throw out a bunch of features even if nobody actually cares about those features. So, I wanted to introduce our sponsor PostHog, which for me, when I'm working on Neat Code IO,
- 5:15
helps me solve the problem of what I should actually be building and what users actually care about. PostHog makes it really easy to know how users are engaging with your app, how they're finding your app, why they might be dropping off of your app. For example, on Neat Code, we recently added a streak feature and that helped increase retention a ton. So, when you add a
- 5:37
feature, whether it's easy to add or difficult to add, you need to know whether it made any sort of impact or not because sometimes you can add a feature and people actually don't like it. So, it's important to know that and you don't really know that unless you're using some kind of tool. And PostHog makes it super super easy. It's really easy to set up. It has a generous free tier. You can even self-host it. It's
- 5:58
open source, so you can do that if you really want to. Some of my favorite features are one, the feature flag, which is a pretty I would say mandatory feature. You need it one way or another and PostHog makes it pretty easy to integrate that. So, with that, not only can you progressively roll out a feature, but you can also run like an AB test and you can know precisely if a
- 6:18
feature helped your app, helped engagement, helped retention, and things like that, or it actually hurt. Like I said, it's super easy to integrate, so what are you waiting for? You can check it out at go.posthog.com/navi. Tell them Neat Code sent you. I guess as a user, someone who's used like Open Code and Cloud Code, I'll definitely say that Open Code is very like it's a very
- 6:40
great experience. It's easy to use. It has integration with other Well, it has workarounds for Cloud Code, but it has direct integration with Open AI. Um, but you're saying that like positioning-wise, you're saying that the quality of the tool is as good as it is and as much as that matters, you're saying that it's actually more important that I guess the bullet points in my head are that it's open source, that you
- 7:01
can switch between models very easily. There's no sort of lock-in. And maybe third is that you guys were probably the first like big open source tool that's doing this. And like that first mover advantage. Would you say that those three things like positioning-wise are the main contributors? Yeah, I would say that that those are like the umbrella and they kind of
- 7:22
manifest as like a thousand little things that you have to do to actually successfully do those things. So, for example, why be open source? The benefit is you get way more eyes on it trying it in different environments than you can internally, which means Open Code from the beginning has been designed to like sneak its way into every type of environment. If you're
- 7:43
someone with a super locked down enterprise laptop and your company only has access to Amazon Bedrock, we made sure that that's worked. But Amazon Bedrock has quirks in different regions. Like we cover all of those like tedious little things um to make sure that this can kind of work across the board. And being open source helps us a lot because we can't really recreate those environments, but other people can and
- 8:04
they can submit issues and fixes for it. Um So yeah, it's a the benefit of being open source you can cover like a long tail. Like long tail type scenario you can you can kind of cover really well. I was going to say but to go back to your original point, yeah like I think if our product was half as good, I think we'd probably still be equally as successful cuz the majority of our success comes from that doing
- 8:25
those positioning things correctly. Right. Yeah and I I guess that's probably a big part that most people overlook nowadays and yeah. Yeah. Um in terms of uh like like the competition aspect of it, one last uh interesting uh thing I was curious about was OpenAI is taking sort of a different route at
- 8:47
least in their relationship with you guys. What is that relationship and why is OpenAI doing it differently? Yeah, so this kind of again goes back to our positioning. We're like if we're the open source option, it means we have a shot at being like a standard that other people build on top of or we get embedded in places. Uh so even prior to the OpenAI thing, we had been working
- 9:08
with uh GitHub, GitLab, JetBrains, trying to convince everyone that hey you guys offer LLMs uh service and you guys have a pool of people that want to use H2O coding. Just bless open code as a great way to do that because we're putting a lot more time into it than you guys are doing with your native tools and people seem to like it. Um and
- 9:28
we convinced a bunch of them like uh that hey like this is a good idea, let's do it. Uh we had enough of them on board that I was able to go then go to Open AI and say uh "Hey, like, you know, a few seems like the industry is supporting this. Like, are you guys willing to support it, too?" Um the reason I went to them is because one, uh they're in again, going back to competition, they're in a
- 9:48
competition with Anthropic. Anthropic is winning in terms of mindshare for coding. Uh for them, they can only gain from doing something like this, like PR-wise, just practically getting more users and uh using Codex. I also timed asking them like the day before Anthropic blocked uh Claude Max and open code. So, I kind of told them this is happening um
- 10:08
like a I I think we didn't get any advanced notice. It just got blocked the night before and we ended up messaging them and yeah, they were they kind of saw the opportunity uh just to counter position. Um so, yeah, I I I don't I don't know if this means fundamentally they like embrace this this type of setup uh or if it's just exploiting these kind of
- 10:30
short-term uh incentives that they have to try to beat Anthropic. Um but that's really what our company does well. Like, we're good at figuring out these things and like applying pressure in the right spot to get something to fold in a way that's good for ourselves and really like all our users and usually the open-source community broadly uh cuz that also made it so other coding agents like Pi
- 10:51
also got access to open uh Open AI uh plan. So, um yeah, like I said, it's all just playing these people against each other, trying to understand their incentives, trying to create a good situation. Um we've done this before. Typically, it it usually ends up looking like you have like one company that you can kind of position as like the bad guy and
- 11:11
then you kind of get the rest of the industry to like uh be on the other side of it and you can kind of make things happen in that way. Right. And I think it's kind of funny that it's sort of changing very, very quickly who's the good guy and who's the bad guy. And uh like you said, even like as Open AI's incentives change, they might, you know, change their mind about certain things as well. Um on that note,
- 11:34
we we've seen really interesting acquisitions happening lately. I think a couple months ago Bun was acquired by Anthropic, which I think probably caught a lot of people by surprise. And recently we've seen OpenClaw acquired by OpenAI. Is Open Code next? Like
- 11:56
the name wise it'd be pretty good. OpenAI Open Code. So So yeah, and I guess what would be the calculus like behind a decision like that? Yeah, and I think what I'm going to say is probably true for a lot of founders. We have spent a lot of years building companies to various successes. Uh
- 12:16
we've always dreamed of building in a much bigger market than we were. Like with every company you build, you're like, "Next time I want to go for something bigger." And you spend so much of your life looking for that. Uh the day you find it, which we now we found that with Open Code. Like now we're serving in a market that's like 30 to 50 million million developers. Like we could reach all them. That's like pretty crazy that a product that could do that.
- 12:38
Uh uh wanting to hand that over is a very difficult decision cuz this is a thing that you spent years searching for. Um and your floor of success, like even if things go to are like it's like still like pretty good. So these offers tend to be less tempting um compared against our the thing that's
- 12:58
like the thing we've been looking for forever. So we've had plenty of acquisition offers come our way already in the past like past couple months. We haven't like pursued any of them. Um someone would have to like drastically overpay, uh which to be honest has happened. Like AI stuff is crazy. Like we've seen some acquisitions last year that were like kind of absurd numbers wise. Um
- 13:20
so overpaying is not out of the question. But I'm actually very proud of our team cuz I I have a specific story where uh CEO of a company called me and they were like, "Hey, we're interested in in acquiring you guys." Uh and we talked I talked to them about a little bit and I was like, "I don't know if this will work out, but I'll talk to the team." I posted in the in our team chat, like, "Hey, like, you know, this company is wants to acquire
- 13:41
us." Everyone ignored me. They just kept talking about like product stuff. They were like working on other stuff. And I pinged everyone again and then someone finally replied being like, "Tell them to off until they add another zero." Uh and it's not like we like even talked about numbers or anything, but it was really cool to see that the whole team is really aligned on trying to take this all the way and not like trying to cash out something pretty quick. Yeah,
- 14:02
no, I think that's really interesting and um yeah, that's why I asked about like the calculus behind it because I think uh like in the case of Bun, um Jared for example, he's obviously been working on this and like he did not get into this for the money. He would not have created that project for the money, but it did end up working out for him in the end.
- 14:23
And I think not only did it work out for him, I think it probably worked out for Bun as well in the sense that um probably for a long time I'm not an expert on how many people are working on Bun, but he was probably the main single point of failure. And I would say that your uh while you guys have a small team, it's it is set up somewhat differently. Um so, yeah, I think that that that does
- 14:44
make sense. Yeah, the and like you know, every founder I'm saying this now, uh if you talk to me again after a couple years and it turns out it was a slog and really struggling, my willingness to sell is going to be totally different. Like with with companies it's always about can you continue to stay motivated every single day? Uh any company that becomes huge is cuz the founders successfully did that for years
- 15:04
and years and years. And it's very hard to do that. And a lot of these acquisitions happen because uh you know, like even though a company might be doing well, making progress, maybe the progress isn't as fast as the founder's hoping or it seems like infinite work ahead of them. Um sometimes that's when these acquisitions uh happen. And again, like they're great acquisitions for everyone including employees.
- 15:25
Uh but yeah, we're trying to we're trying to go all the way at least as of now.
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